It would also be nice to see some wizard-wizard, witch-witch couples walking in the park.
1: I don't think BFS are trying to fight that battle. 2: I think you can define the genders of some of the visitors to be whatever you like.
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."- Desmond Tutu They clearly already think inter-generational romances are okay, so why not go a step further?!
As far as we know, BFS wanted to add some witch-witch and wizard-wizard couples, but Hasbro could have said no.
They are profit driven, and while they were going to get some flack like voiced above and probably angry emails, they most likely decided that they would anger a greater number of customers if they DID do this. It is easier to notice something they specially added to the game, than something they left out.
Don't get me wrong tho. I would have loved to see some same-gender magical couples. But I'm just saying that it can be looked at as a company standardly making a profit-based decision. Nothing unusual.
1: I don't think BFS are trying to fight that battle. 2: I think you can define the genders of some of the visitors to be whatever you like.
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."- Desmond Tutu They clearly already think inter-generational romances are okay, so why not go a step further?!
Hi RC,
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I don't think their position on anything can be judged by some animated characters in a game. All the characters are white as well, does that make them racist by default?
Down with BFS I say! There is not a single non magical person shown. Clearly they are oppressing Muggles!
Main GCID: GregDarcy Secondary: GregDarcyToo All gems friends spoken for. Happy to accept friends for party hats. I blame Apple's auto incorrect for all my typos. I actively discourage challenges. All challengers are unfriended.
Post by moominjules on Feb 6, 2015 16:58:55 GMT -6
These wee couples aren't neccisarily on dates anyway! Perhaps the age gap is daddy wizard taking young daughter out for a lovely stroll round the park.? Lol
Do all the wizards have beards? Some may be folically challenged and in their robes, which lets be honest, can look like dresses, they could resemble witches!
Peace love and harmony to all bearded, non bearded and stubbly folk everywhere! Haha.
These wee couples aren't neccisarily on dates anyway! Perhaps the age gap is daddy wizard taking young daughter out for a lovely stroll round the park.? Lol
Do all the wizards have beards? Some may be folically challenged and in their robes, which lets be honest, can look like dresses, they could resemble witches!
Peace love and harmony to all bearded, non bearded and stubbly folk everywhere! Haha.
These wee couples aren't neccisarily on dates anyway! Perhaps the age gap is daddy wizard taking young daughter out for a lovely stroll round the park.? Lol
Do all the wizards have beards? Some may be folically challenged and in their robes, which lets be honest, can look like dresses, they could resemble witches!
Peace love and harmony to all bearded, non bearded and stubbly folk everywhere! Haha.
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality."- Desmond Tutu They clearly already think inter-generational romances are okay, so why not go a step further?!
Hi RC,
Welcome to the forum. Have you been lurking for a while? Signing up is free and will allow you to receive email alerts when new dragons are released.
I don't think their position on anything can be judged by some animated characters in a game. All the characters are white as well, does that make them racist by default?
Cheers Fletch
I don't know if BFS's position on anything can be judged by some animated characters in a game, but since it is all I have to go on and all they have to make any kind of statement with, I'm going to say it's inevitable that conclusions will be made based on their choices. I'm fairly certain they are aware of that and it was a conscious decision. These kinds of decisions by any business/corporation concerning social issues would need to be purposeful, unless the company or corporation is run by incompetents or fools. I don't know if the decision makers are racists or homophobic or whatever, but WoC (wizards and witches of color) have been consistently and conspicuously absent for as long as I have been playing. And during this event same sex couples, non white couples and biracial couples were left out of the event. Unless there is some reason why only white people can be wizards and witches, I think Dragonvale could use some diversity.
I don't know if BFS's position on anything can be judged by some animated characters in a game, but since it is all I have to go on and all they have to make any kind of statement with, I'm going to say it's inevitable that conclusions will be made based on their choices.
Hi cynmed. Good to be discussing this with you,
Suppositions will be made, not conclusions. Conclusions can be reached, but only if you have access to all the relevant facts. The problem with your starting point is that the animated characters in DV are by no means the only things they have to make statements with. Leaving aside the dozens of other games they have, they have websites, Facebook page and other social media. They have press releases, interviews and other journalistic options. They have hiring practices and the actual day to day running of their company.
These kinds of decisions by any business/corporation concerning social issues would need to be purposeful, unless the company or corporation is run by incompetents or fools.
Really? I've got to say, until the idea of same gender couples was bought up regarding this event, it did not even occur to me that there was no alternative race wizards in the game. I don't recall it ever being bought up as an issue before. And I think it far more likely that the makers of the game spend all their time on creating and implementing the dragons that are the point of the game, and spend little on the NPCs that walk in the background.
I don't know if the decision makers are racists or homophobic or whatever, but WoC (wizards and witches of color) have been consistently and conspicuously absent for as long as I have been playing. And during this event same sex couples, non white couples and biracial couples were left out of the event. Unless there is some reason why only white people can be wizards and witches, I think Dragonvale could use some diversity.
I think so too, but the BG characters are not the point of this game. Gay couples make up a couple of percent of the population. Is it worth their time and effort to put 2 guy+guy and 2 girl+girl couples walking amongst the hundreds of visitors in my park? I would rather BFS donate the money to a non profit that fights for equality in the real world.
Welcome to the forum. Have you been lurking for a while? Signing up is free and will allow you to receive email alerts when new dragons are released.
I don't think their position on anything can be judged by some animated characters in a game. All the characters are white as well, does that make them racist by default?
Cheers Fletch
I don't know if BFS's position on anything can be judged by some animated characters in a game, but since it is all I have to go on and all they have to make any kind of statement with, I'm going to say it's inevitable that conclusions will be made based on their choices. I'm fairly certain they are aware of that and it was a conscious decision. These kinds of decisions by any business/corporation concerning social issues would need to be purposeful, unless the company or corporation is run by incompetents or fools. I don't know if the decision makers are racists or homophobic or whatever, but WoC (wizards and witches of color) have been consistently and conspicuously absent for as long as I have been playing. And during this event same sex couples, non white couples and biracial couples were left out of the event. Unless there is some reason why only white people can be wizards and witches, I think Dragonvale could use some diversity.
Sorry no. Leaving aside the various avenues Fletch_smf pointed out, They also have other games. One of them (sadly no longer supported) is called Gizmonauts. There is at least one VoC wandering around the Outposts there. It is very much in the mould of DV, but has some tweaks that IMO make it better. Download it and check it out.
But yes. I do think BFS missed an opportunity here. Still as Fletch also pointed out the NPCs are a very small part of the game and probably receive very little attention in the overall design. The Dragons OTOH receive a lot of attention and not surprisingly come in all shapes and colours. And I am still puzzling over their gender orientation.
They still show scant regard for the Southern Hemisphere.
Last Edit: Feb 6, 2015 22:32:50 GMT -6 by GregDarcy
Main GCID: GregDarcy Secondary: GregDarcyToo All gems friends spoken for. Happy to accept friends for party hats. I blame Apple's auto incorrect for all my typos. I actively discourage challenges. All challengers are unfriended.
And since we're talking about it, I think a better statement to be made about LGBT by the company, through the game, would be a dragon that highlighted that diversity. Is there an international Gay Pride Day? Or a specific day in the American calendar that highlighted the minority? If so, send them an email about it making the suggestion.
Or does anyone think there is already a dragon that is showing support in some subtle way?
For me Dragonvale is the only barometer I have. I don't play any other game from BFS. I don't read their press releases and to date they have not reached me with their other journalistic options. I have no knowledge of their hiring practices but if they are a US based company they must at least give a perfunctory nod toward a non discriminatory employment policy, so I'm not sure what that would tell me about them anyway. I doubt that I am the only person whose only exposure to BFS is Dragonvale and consequently use it to reach a conclusion on their inclusiveness. I'm not advocating this as a way of understanding a company's position on racism and homophobia. I'm simply saying that to me it seems like this is either a lack of awareness of what it says about them as a company to ignore large or small segments of the population or a keen awareness of what it says about them as company to ignore large or small segments of the population. I'm hoping for the former. But if that is true they need to be more purposeful in their choices.
Because the reality that all the NPCs in the game are white was never brought up as an issue before does not change the fact that all the NPCs in the game are white. Whether this is an issue to anyone individually is personal, however I maintain that it should be an issue to the company since it sends a message. Perhaps because the majority of the people playing Dragonvale would be heterosexuals it makes good business sense for a variety of reasons not to include same sex couples in one event, however given the numbers regarding white vs. non white I don't see the financial upside in ignoring the non white population. I do get that it is hard for us white folk to remember that there are people of color who should be included but one would think that all those non whites in the employment of BFS might notice and point it out.
I understand that dragons are what the game is about. I just feel that since there are going to be many people who do not have the opportunity to come in contact with BFS in any other capacity it would be a good idea to show some inclusiveness. If, because there are not enough gay people to make it worth their while to concern themselves with inclusiveness surrounding sexual orientation, then at the very least in areas of race. It would be nice to at least give a nod toward the people of color who play Dragonvale. I would imagine there is more than a couple of percent of them in the population. Is it that hard to change the color of something? Harder than choosing two wizards or two witches to walk together?
But at the end of the day people will see what they want to see. And of all the ways in which people are oppressed on a daily basis, the lack of same sex couples in a Valentine's Day event or the complete disregard for PoC in Dragonvale in general, isn't even a blip on the radar. And perhaps as both Fletch_smf and GregDarcy have pointed out, since NPC's are such a very small part of the game, it really doesn't matter and says nothing about BFS's attitude about inclusiveness. At least neither gay people nor people of color are being told to play an alternative version of Dragonvale that is separate but equal.
"I do get that it is hard for us white folk to remember that there are people of color who should be included but one would think that all those non whites in the employment of BFS might notice and point it out."
You bring up an interesting point here. My whole thinking on the matter is that it hasn't even occurred to the programmers to diversify the visitors, but you would think that someone in the company would have raised the issue, particularly those of a minority themselves. So what are the options here?
1. BFS is an entirely white company. 2. The minority employees haven't realised there was an issue because their focus is on the dragon play itself. 3. The minority employees have realised the issue but have not raised it as a problem. 4. The minority employees have raised the issue and management have not rectified the problem for whatever reason.
Have I missed any other options? And is there any way we can work out what the real answer is?
"But at the end of the day people will see what they want to see. And of all the ways in which people are oppressed on a daily basis, the lack of same sex couples in a Valentine's Day event or the complete disregard for PoC in Dragonvale in general, isn't even a blip on the radar. And perhaps as both Fletch_smf and GregDarcy have pointed out, since NPC's are such a very small part of the game, it really doesn't matter and says nothing about BFS's attitude about inclusiveness. At least neither gay people nor people of color are being told to play an alternative version of Dragonvale that is separate but equal."
As usual, I think the things that unite us far outweigh the things that divide us.
There are a couple of other options I can think of...
It is highly unlikely a company could get away with being all white. In the US there are quotas to be reached.. It is more likely that non white personnel are employed doing other things. The coders, programmers and other employees in the position to be heard by those in power are white so are not likely to notice on there own that all NPC are white therefore a large segment of society has been erased. To them it is just business as usual.
Employees of color do not feel secure enough to point out the lack of diversity. Most white people don't like being made to address issues of race in any capacity. Many white people sincerely believe there are no issues of race any longer. They see any pointing out of problems by PoC as “playing the race card”. It may not feel prudent or wise to challenge people who have power over you especially considering that problems of race and the small every day unnoticed privileges of being white are emotionally charged issues. It might be considered career suicide.
Employees who are not white may be tired of constantly having to educate white people especially considering how unwelcoming and unfruitful such attempts usually are. Perhaps they are saving their energy for more important battles.
Perhaps, although unlikely, but since we are considering possible options regardless of their likelihood, BFS has personality tests they administer during the employee screening process that would weed out potential political and social advocates and agitators.
Sexism, racism, classism, homophobia and misogyny are systemic in a patriarchy. Because they are such integral parts of the fabric of our lives, subtle forms of oppression go mostly unnoticed. The threads of the various oppressions run together in the background forming the matrix of our lives.
I completely agree that the things that unite us far outweigh the things that divide us. I don't think it is possible for me to agree with a statement any more than I agree with that. The issue is we are subtly encouraged to focus on finding scapegoats for problems we experience individually and as a society. That requires an emphasis on our differences We should understand that while what unites us outweighs what divides us, what divides us drives a wedge between us. And pointing out what divides us is NOT the problem, the problem is the actual things that divide us.
Not everything is fixable. Not everything will be equally important in everyone's eyes. That does not make it any less valuable to understand exclusion based on race, gender, sexual orientation and any other “ism” when it occurs. It may not seem important and it will be easy to minimize the situation, but it is always a symptom of the larger problem and worth noticing whether anything is done about it or not. Sometimes just being a witness is all that is possible.
The exclusion of PoCs in DV is most likely an unconscious thing. I have several characters for stories that I write, and when I was younger almost all these characters were white. Racial diversity just wasn't something that factored in to my character creation process. It's not an overt racism, but something that's been ingrained into my mind by society that I'm having to unlearn. I've gotten better about character design in the recent years, but "default white" is something that I'm trying to unlearn. I'd love to see some PoCs in DV, as I'm sure DVs audience is quite diverse! It's always nice to see yourself represented in a game/movie/TV show/book.
As to what GregDarcy brought up about dragon genders... the gender binary is a human construct. There doesn't necessarily need to be two genders of dragons. I always assumed they were agender.
First off, I'll point out that the old dragon track witch is debatably not white.
Regardless, you have to think of where the whole archetype of the wizard with the pointy hat and robe came from. It originated in Europe, and in Europe (especially in other centuries) most of the people were white. So when you character design a generic magical wizard... you would usually automatically make them white. Think of all the classical wizards you've seen in stories. Now I would expect BFS to slowly start introducing other races over time... so it is a little odd that they haven't yet. But not THAT odd. I wouldn't have expected the first non-white wizard until a year or so ago.
I'm not definitively saying BFS as a company is racist and homophobic. I'm not saying they are a bad company. I'm not saying they are consciously leaving out PoC. I am saying that they should be aware of what message they send when they leave out large segments of the population. And if they are not aware, they really should be. Some marketing person or human resource representative ought to say “Hey you guys need to add a little color and diversity.” I don't think BFS needs defending or excuses., they just need to take responsibility for the implications of their choices whether conscious or unconscious. And it is certainly true that we tend to create in our own image. But as a company they should rise above that. I also think it doesn't hurt to poke them a little and see if they will become more inclusive. It's not a bad thing to ask that of a company. It's really not an attack to ask for change. It's not an insult to them. It's more like a heads up.
I totally agree that gender is a social construct. The problem with that is that most of the rest of society does not agree. Nor do they behave in any way like it is true. We are conditioned from birth to think in pink and blue. To change that takes conscious effort. And we can also say that race is a social construct as there is no biological basis for racial categories. The problem is that this purports the belief that race or color doesn't/shouldn't matter because it is socially constructed by human thought and interaction. The color blindness thing. The I don't see color when I look at someone argument. It totally erases the day to day experience of a person of color in a society where white people hold systemic power. And saying that gender is a social construct while true also erases the experiences of people whose gender presentation does not match society's definition of how their gender should look.
Anyway I think I'm just beating a dead horse here. I hope there is change with BFS. But it would take outward displays of racism and homophobia to convince me that BFS is a racist and homophobic business and make me stop playing Dragonvale. Great game. I love it.
Gosh this is a game! Not a real life story. And it is based on very ancient myths and stories. And wizards are neither male or female, they are imaginary entities which, as in legends, can change appearance as they wish. At the time these stories were told, Europe had no clue there were people of other colours in the world, the stories were about fighting the evil , sometimes in form of a dragon. In recent days I have been playing games where you are asked to watch some videos on games in order to get a bonus. All, I repeat: All these games are war games, war is so funny and exiting .... Well, here is a reason to get upset on a Real problem: presenting young people war as being such an entertaining game. Horrible thought. Re colour of people : years ago I used to work for Microsoft as Administrator of chats, I discussed for hours with people and I remember that after 5 years I happen to know that one of the persons I used to speak with regularly was an afro american. I couldn t care less if he was black green yellow, purple or whatevr color.l He was a anice and interesting person and that all ever mattered. Personnaly, i would find it ridiculous if wizards started to be something different from what they are, just to be "politically correct". (Another of these stupid expression).
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