Would love to start keeping track again. Will be doing so now, and posting my results there.
My results from today from trying to parent clone Masque and Canvas in the Social Cave, in both cases with Poison as the "local" dragon. 60 tries for Masque, 90 for Canvas. (The results are from more than one park). I don't want to over-interpret the results, but it seems, prima facie, that the odds for Poison are indeed around 10% as speculated. Other regular dragons account for 12% in both cases. (Possibly a coincidence due to other factors). I'm not sure what else to make of this... yet. Just sharing.
I notice you are using a rifted dragon to clone. I am wondering if that has something to do with why you are getting 12% of regular hybrids, and I (not using rifted dragons) haven't seen any.
I notice you are using a rifted dragon to clone. I am wondering if that has something to do with why you are getting 12% of regular hybrids, and I (not using rifted dragons) haven't seen any.
I don't think so. I used both rifted and non-rifted dragons when I was trying for Grace (Cuddlewing + water + light) and I still got ~10% hybrids. (I lost the list, but roughly remember the %). I also tried for Canvas/Masque with a normal Poison in some parks (low level, no Rift), but didn't include those results here. I wanted it to be extra consistent, so I only included results from high-level parks (110+).
Do you want to move this discussion to the other thread you linked to?
I notice you are using a rifted dragon to clone. I am wondering if that has something to do with why you are getting 12% of regular hybrids, and I (not using rifted dragons) haven't seen any.
I don't think so. I used both rifted and non-rifted dragons when I was trying for Grace (Cuddlewing + water + light) and I still got ~10% hybrids. (I lost the list, but roughly remember the %). I also tried for Canvas/Masque with a normal Poison in some parks (low level, no Rift), but didn't include those results here. I wanted it to be extra consistent, so I only included results from high-level parks (110+).
On second thought... the regular hybrids could have come exclusively from the parks where I used rifted dragons?
I'll switch to regular a Poison for the Canvas/Masque cloning experiment.
I notice you are using a rifted dragon to clone. I am wondering if that has something to do with why you are getting 12% of regular hybrids, and I (not using rifted dragons) haven't seen any.
I don't think so. I used both rifted and non-rifted dragons when I was trying for Grace (Cuddlewing + water + light) and I still got ~10% hybrids. (I lost the list, but roughly remember the %). I also tried for Canvas/Masque with a normal Poison in some parks (low level, no Rift), but didn't include those results here. I wanted it to be extra consistent, so I only included results from high-level parks (110+).
Do you want to move this discussion to the other thread you linked to?
Yeah I moved this here.
That's super interesting with the regular hybrid results. The fact that you're getting them and I'm not ... I don't know what other variables might be in play here. I mean, you're getting them quite regularly, and I did 100 breeds for an Ocular and got none. dragonvale-tips.proboards.com/post/201681/thread and I don't remember seeing one in all the other breeding/cloning I've been doing where the set percentages are over 100%. And I have been looking for them.
So the only thing I can think of is that there is some type of difference between my breeding/dragons/park and yours. Apparently it's not rifted dragons. Does anyone else have any thoughts?
That's super interesting with the regular hybrid results. The fact that you're getting them and I'm not ... I don't know what other variables might be in play here. I mean, you're getting them quite regularly, and I did 100 breeds for an Ocular and got none. dragonvale-tips.proboards.com/post/201681/thread and I don't remember seeing one in all the other breeding/cloning I've been doing where the set percentages are over 100%. And I have been looking for them.
So the only thing I can think of is that there is some type of difference between my breeding/dragons/park and yours. Apparently it's not rifted dragons. Does anyone else have any thoughts?
Maybe it's the breeding location?
Your Ocular results were from the Epic Breeding Island (upgraded?) and I did all the Masque/Canvas+Poison breeds in the Social Cave. It says in the EPI 'Info' that "[O]ur magical projections lead us to believe that some of the rarer dragon hybrids might come about more frequently without the distractions of a normal breeding cave".
Perhaps regular hybrids are suppressed in the EPI, and when the 'total set %' is more than 100% they can't be breed at all?
One way to test this would be to switch breeding locations, i.e. try Masque/Canvas+Poison in the EPI, and try for Ocular (Cyclops+Barbarous) in the Social Cave.
Are any of the testing crew still around and able to test things? Looking at Fletch's numbers has really sparked my curiosity again, and there are several tests I'd love to run.
One very important question we need to work out is how are cloning results impacted when the result sets are large. Something with my data led me to believe the cloning results are checked first, regardless of the number of results. But now I'm second guessing that assumption, and I'd love to get a clear answer. Unfortunately none of my alt parks have the perfect dragon to test this result: Embossed.
Embossed has a 30% single parent clone chance, while two Embossed parent chances are not listed. That's in the rift and in normal caves, NOT in social.
If anyone has a rift Embossed in an alt test park and can run some daily tests with Embossed + Rainbow, that would be super helpful. I can do it on my main park once this event ends, before the next starts - but I'm currently trying to catch up with new dragons in this event right now.
Embossed + Rainbow has so many results that the percentages sum up to 480+%. If the cloning is impacted, then I would expect to get Embossed around 6% of the time. If it's not, we'd see it around 30% of the time. It shouldn't take very many test runs to quickly see this pattern.
I've checked all my parks, and I don't have a rift Embossed in any of them. I had a normal Embossed in three parks, and tried to parent clone it a few times just to see. I used Triple Leap Year instead of Rainbow. I got 4/9 Embossed in the Epic Breeding Island, and (different park) 0/5 in the Breeding Cave.
In the EBI, not upgraded:
Embossed (20) + Triple Leap Year (15) daylily embossed embossed embossed cyclone embossed triple leap year permafrost triple leap year
In the Breeding Cave, not upgraded:
Embossed (20) + Triple Leap Year (10) permafrost blue fire br olympus chimneypuff cyclone
That's super interesting with the regular hybrid results. The fact that you're getting them and I'm not ... I don't know what other variables might be in play here. I mean, you're getting them quite regularly, and I did 100 breeds for an Ocular and got none. dragonvale-tips.proboards.com/post/201681/thread and I don't remember seeing one in all the other breeding/cloning I've been doing where the set percentages are over 100%. And I have been looking for them.
So the only thing I can think of is that there is some type of difference between my breeding/dragons/park and yours. Apparently it's not rifted dragons. Does anyone else have any thoughts?
Maybe it's the breeding location?
Your Ocular results were from the Epic Breeding Island (upgraded?) and I did all the Masque/Canvas+Poison breeds in the Social Cave. It says in the EPI 'Info' that "[O]ur magical projections lead us to believe that some of the rarer dragon hybrids might come about more frequently without the distractions of a normal breeding cave".
Perhaps regular hybrids are suppressed in the EPI, and when the 'total set %' is more than 100% they can't be breed at all?
One way to test this would be to switch breeding locations, i.e. try Masque/Canvas+Poison in the EPI, and try for Ocular (Cyclops+Barbarous) in the Social Cave.
But all my Social cloning is obviously taking place in the CBC and I'm not seeing regular dragons there.
I'm on an iPhone? Any chance you're playing on an Android device?
Your Ocular results were from the Epic Breeding Island (upgraded?) and I did all the Masque/Canvas+Poison breeds in the Social Cave. It says in the EPI 'Info' that "[O]ur magical projections lead us to believe that some of the rarer dragon hybrids might come about more frequently without the distractions of a normal breeding cave".
Perhaps regular hybrids are suppressed in the EPI, and when the 'total set %' is more than 100% they can't be breed at all?
One way to test this would be to switch breeding locations, i.e. try Masque/Canvas+Poison in the EPI, and try for Ocular (Cyclops+Barbarous) in the Social Cave.
But all my Social cloning is obviously taking place in the CBC and I'm not seeing regular dragons there.
I'm on an iPhone? Any chance you're playing on an Android device?
iPad.
But... You listed regular hybrids in both the (Ocular+Cactus) and (Ocular+Lightning Elder) experiments. And that was in the Social Cave (CBC) right? It was only (Cyclops+Barbarous) in the EBI didn't give any regular hybrids? Feel free to correct if I've misunderstood/misinterpreted your results.
But all my Social cloning is obviously taking place in the CBC and I'm not seeing regular dragons there.
I'm on an iPhone? Any chance you're playing on an Android device?
iPad.
But... You listed regular hybrids in both the (Ocular+Cactus) and (Ocular+Lightning Elder) experiments. And that was in the Social Cave (CBC) right? It was only (Cyclops+Barbarous) in the EBI didn't give any regular hybrids? Feel free to correct if I've misunderstood/misinterpreted your results.
Nope, that's right. But I don't think the set % was over 100 in those cases. So the regular hybrids had a chance of being bred. Cyclops + Barbarous were definitely over 100%.
Last Edit: Feb 23, 2021 5:12:55 GMT -6 by Fletch_smf
But... You listed regular hybrids in both the (Ocular+Cactus) and (Ocular+Lightning Elder) experiments. And that was in the Social Cave (CBC) right? It was only (Cyclops+Barbarous) in the EBI didn't give any regular hybrids? Feel free to correct if I've misunderstood/misinterpreted your results.
Nope, that's right. But I don't think the set % was over 100 in those cases. So the regular hybrids had a chance of being bred. Cyclops + Barbarous were definitely over 100%.
I was hypothesising that the complete suppression of regular hybrids only happen in the Epic Breeding Island (where your Cyclops+Barbarous results were from), and not in the Social Cave (CBC). I.e. regular hybrids are possible in the Social Cave (CBC) regardless of the 'Set %', like I saw with Poison+Masque/Canvas.
Epic Breeding Island: If 'Set %' > 100 => no regular hybrids
Social Breeding Cave: If 'set %' > 100 => regular hybrids still possible
I'm keen to test this hypothesis by breeding Cyclops+Barbarous in the CBC, but Ocular is not breedable at the moment. (Even though it's the regular hybrids we're after, I don't want an extra uncertainty factor like that). But if the question actually boils down to "Does the EBI produce regular hybrids when Set%' > 100?" then I suppose any breeding combination with Set % > 100 will do? I'm thinking I'll try Rainbow+Poison in all breeding locations (Cave, Island, Rift, Social) in my parks to see if there's a noticeable difference with the % of regular hybrids.
Embossed (20) + Triple Leap Year (15) daylily embossed embossed embossed cyclone embossed triple leap year permafrost triple leap year
In the Breeding Cave, not upgraded:
Embossed (20) + Triple Leap Year (10) permafrost blue fire br olympus chimneypuff cyclone
Thanks for the info on Embossed, we'll need to collect significantly more data to to see accurate results but anything is a good start. It's certainly looking like Embossed is closer to 30% cloning than 6% in that Epic cave. No results in the normal cave could be due to only a small number of tries, but we really can't draw any conclusions yet.
I have an Embossed in one alt park, but not in the rift, and not with many gems on that account. I was able to do one breed so far, and it was an Embossed. I'll see if I can find more people to try more results, and add them up over time.
If you're looking for a test that's over 100%, this breeding pair is certainly over 100 and it would be interesting to see which caves you see normal hybrids. I know the normal hybrids show in 2% of the cases in the rift cave when this happens.
Nope, that's right. But I don't think the set % was over 100 in those cases. So the regular hybrids had a chance of being bred. Cyclops + Barbarous were definitely over 100%.
I was hypothesising that the complete suppression of regular hybrids only happen in the Epic Breeding Island (where your Cyclops+Barbarous results were from), and not in the Social Cave (CBC). I.e. regular hybrids are possible in the Social Cave (CBC) regardless of the 'Set %', like I saw with Poison+Masque/Canvas.
Epic Breeding Island: If 'Set %' > 100 => no regular hybrids
Social Breeding Cave: If 'set %' > 100 => regular hybrids still possible
I'm keen to test this hypothesis by breeding Cyclops+Barbarous in the CBC, but Ocular is not breedable at the moment. (Even though it's the regular hybrids we're after, I don't want an extra uncertainty factor like that). But if the question actually boils down to "Does the EBI produce regular hybrids when Set%' > 100?" then I suppose any breeding combination with Set % > 100 will do? I'm thinking I'll try Rainbow+Poison in all breeding locations (Cave, Island, Rift, Social) in my parks to see if there's a noticeable difference with the % of regular hybrids.
I can't be sure for 100% of them, but I think my Cyclops + Barbarous tests were done in the CBC as well. And all my cloning attempts for the Winter and Valentine dragons has obviously been done in the CBC, and the only regular hybrid I recall breeding is a Lava dragon, whilst trying to Clone Yanghis, which had a set % of exactly 100%. That me think that the math is not exactly right. But your results, of course, make the numbers way out.
But either way, I haven't had a regular hybrid in my hatchery for over a month. Save for Poison.
Last Edit: Feb 24, 2021 5:16:48 GMT -6 by Fletch_smf
Thanks for the info on Embossed, we'll need to collect significantly more data to to see accurate results but anything is a good start. It's certainly looking like Embossed is closer to 30% cloning than 6% in that Epic cave. No results in the normal cave could be due to only a small number of tries, but we really can't draw any conclusions yet.
I have an Embossed in one alt park, but not in the rift, and not with many gems on that account. I was able to do one breed so far, and it was an Embossed. I'll see if I can find more people to try more results, and add them up over time.
If you're looking for a test that's over 100%, this breeding pair is certainly over 100 and it would be interesting to see which caves you see normal hybrids. I know the normal hybrids show in 2% of the cases in the rift cave when this happens.
You're welcome. Thanks for the Rift/hybrid info.
Re: Embossed - Yes, the 0/5 result* in the CAVE was also with the other dragon only at lvl 10. I wouldn't use the data together. I also don't have enough gems to produce a large data set. But one possibility is to clone a bunch of them and hope for an event with the Runic minicaves soon. (To run multiple tests, at fast breeding rates, and claim a rift version). *Make that 0/7 with the latest attempts.
I'm going with Rainbow+Poison for the hybrid % experiment in order to get the most results. In the "worst case scenario" that a park has neither of them, I should at least be able to get a Poison to use in the social cave. I'm hoping I'll soon start to see some regular hybrids from the social and normal breeding caves, but I am of course open to the possibility that my hypothesis is just not true. So far I've gotten 2 reg. hybrids in ~90 tries in the Rift (and 0 Poison), so that's in the neighbourhood of the 2% you mentioned.
Really strange with the 0/7 Embossed in the normal cave, and 4/9 in the epic cave. Makes me wonder if the cloning chance for Embossed is for the epic cave only, and the normal uses a default, or if we just don't have enough data points (most likely). Shows we really need to run a bunch of tests in different caves to nail things down.
Really strange with the 0/7 Embossed in the normal cave, and 4/9 in the epic cave. Makes me wonder if the cloning chance for Embossed is for the epic cave only, and the normal uses a default, or if we just don't have enough data points (most likely). Shows we really need to run a bunch of tests in different caves to nail things down.
Yes, it's very interesting. Here are the updated numbers:
5/12 in the ISLAND - Embossed lvl 20 + TLY lvl 15; 0/4 in the CAVE - Embossed lvl 20 + TLY lvl 15; 0/8 in the CAVE - Embossed lvl 20 + TLY lvl 10;
It's possible that the cloning odds are for the ISLAND only. My first thought was that it had something to do with the ISLAND boosting the odds for rare dragons, in a way that doesn't happen in the CAVE. We're dealing with a dragon that has a uniquely high, defined, single parent cloning chance of 30%. So if it behaves unlike any other dragon we've seen, that's probably why. The closest match, odds-wise, are Bronze and Zombie with a 10% single parent cloning chance (Normal cave only) and Nosferatu with 7.5%. All other comparable (rare or epic) dragons have 5% or less, if the odds are defined in the game file. Whatever happens in the algorithm, the "starting number" for Embossed is much, much higher than normal.
I know from experience that two parent cloning is comparably successful in the CAVE and ISLAND, and that the odds in the game file match the actual success rate. That's also true for two parent cloning in the Rift and the Social Cave. (I've worked systematically on cloning a lot of dragons). So at least for two parent cloning, the CAVE-algorithm seems to follow the same "cloning rules" as the other breeding spots. But obviously it could be different for single parent cloning...? I really don't have a clue at this point.
I'm still collecting results from Poison+Rainbow, but I can safely say I'm not getting 10-20% normal hybrids anywhere.
Are any of the testing crew still around and able to test things? Looking at Fletch's numbers has really sparked my curiosity again, and there are several tests I'd love to run.
One very important question we need to work out is how are cloning results impacted when the result sets are large. Something with my data led me to believe the cloning results are checked first, regardless of the number of results. But now I'm second guessing that assumption, and I'd love to get a clear answer. Unfortunately none of my alt parks have the perfect dragon to test this result: Embossed.
Embossed has a 30% single parent clone chance, while two Embossed parent chances are not listed. That's in the rift and in normal caves, NOT in social.
If anyone has a rift Embossed in an alt test park and can run some daily tests with Embossed + Rainbow, that would be super helpful. I can do it on my main park once this event ends, before the next starts - but I'm currently trying to catch up with new dragons in this event right now.
Embossed + Rainbow has so many results that the percentages sum up to 480+%. If the cloning is impacted, then I would expect to get Embossed around 6% of the time. If it's not, we'd see it around 30% of the time. It shouldn't take very many test runs to quickly see this pattern.
If you are still wanting to test Embossed + Rainbow, I can do it in one of the previous test parks that has a rifted embossed. But like you, I will need to wait until after the event and before the next one starts (since I have been playing in that park as well, although the goals are much simpler, only aiming for at least one regular and one rifted version of all the dragons.)
Until the event is over, I won't be able to test out Embossed + RB in the rift. If we're given a short break between events, I should be able to run 100+ attempt there to get some better numbers. But my one alt account with no gems has now done 2 breeds (second is almost ready) in the epic breeding cave with Embossed + RB. Both attempts got an Embossed.
I do believe the 30% is not impacted by the numbers going over 100 in the Epic breeding cave. And it appears to be impacted in the normal cave, likely bringing it down to 6%. This is really interesting, but we'll need so many more attempts to be sure of the patterns and numbers.
There are so many possibilities. It could be the cloning chances are fixed, as was my original assumption based on prior testing, in the epic cave. But the epic cave states that the rarer dragons should be more frequent in this cave. Perhaps the epic cave handles numbers over 100% differently. Maybe the epic cave keeps golden hybrids down when the numbers are over 100, so those other dragons keep their original odds and they goldens get what's left. We wouldn't notice this mechanic on most other breeds, as this is one of the very few with such high cloning odds. Or something else is going on here. Very interesting!
I do believe the 30% is not impacted by the numbers going over 100 in the Epic breeding cave. And it appears to be impacted in the normal cave, likely bringing it down to 6%. This is really interesting, but we'll need so many more attempts to be sure of the patterns and numbers.
Yes, I think you're right. But we definitely need more results. I have now bred two Embossed in the normal cave, so it went from 0% to 29% (0/5 to 2/7) in the blink of an eye. Or 12.5% if you include the results with the lvl 10 TLY, but I'm hesitant to combine them.
Because... and I know this is probably premature, but it seems like I'm getting quite a bit more than 30% in the Epic Island. I wonder if that has to do with the dragons' levels? I've always been curious what it means, quantitatively, that a dragon's breeding odds are 'Normal', 'Slightly Better', 'Better', etc. If it includes a percentage boost to the parents' odds, Embossed would be affected by it to a much higher degree than other dragons. I'm not sure how much I believe this, but it would be interesting to test it.
And one more thing I'd like to test, is a breeding combination (Embossed + X) where the odds add to ca. 200 instead of ca. 500. That should reduce the CAVE-odds for Embossed to 15% if the theory is right.
More results:
2/2 in the ISLAND - Embossed (20) + Leap Year (15); 6/13 in the ISLAND - Embossed (20) + TLY (15); 2/7 in the CAVE - Embossed (20) + TLY (15); 0/9 in the CAVE - Embossed (20) + TLY (10);
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